This shocks me to the hilt.

What do others think? and ever heard of it before?


Question
My mother is almost 97 years old. She has been in a nursing home for three years and has continuously gone down hill. She is well taken care of, but is in the end stages (I believe). She is able to sit up in a wheel chair; her speech is minimal(usually just "hello"); she eats three meals a day, reacts to kindness--smiles, and strikes out if threatened; she sleeps either in bed or in the wheel chair most of the day and night; she is unable to stand and has difficulty moving her legs. I cannot detect pain of any kind, but I am not an expert in these matters.

The problem is that members of my immediate family want to with- hold food so that her death is imminent. I cannot justify this. No where can I find a reference to this situation on the Internet. As far as I can tell, she still enjoys eating. She does not turn it down although she eats less. My mother is a spiritual person and I believe that she would not agree to this as it takes the timing of her life and death out of God's hands. I believe that withholding food is immoral. I also have a deep faith and rather God take her in his time. My relatives have no belief system.

Please tell me what you know of similar situations (if any). Do relatives of other dementia patients withhold food? I have a meeting with these relatives and a health management person on Thursday, Mar 3. I was not made known of any of these plans until Friday morning when a meeting (unknown to me)had been arranged and I was told to be there at 9:30 am the same day. The meeting was over 2 1/2 hours away. Needless to say I could not make it. It was cancelled and rescheduled for March 3. I am listed first on my mother's living well. Does that give me any power to stop this. I would also like to know your opinion of withholding food from a patient willing to eat it. Hope this is clear to you.  Thank you for anything you can do, Diana.

Answer
Hello Diana:  I'm so sorry to hear about this dilemma with your dear mother.  I have not had any clients or heard of any relatives who chose to stop feeding a person with dementia when they could clearly still eat food and drink fluids.  You are correct, eating is just about the only thing she can still participate in, and in my opinion, she should not be deprived of that opportunity simply because some relatives want her to die sooner rather than later.  That's why we have laws to protect the elderly from some of their own families.  I would question whether the nursing home would even participate in withholding food and fluids from her when she can still eat--I believe they would see it as actively causing the death of a resident and would refuse to do so.  The person, or people who have durable healthcare power of attorney for your mother can make healthcare decisions for her, but again, that decision to withhold food would not be a proper one.  I think if you simply ask the question aloud to the management of the nursing home (during the meeting), if they could be held liable in causing the death of your mother should they withhold food from her, they would agree they could be and refuse to do so.  At the very least, it would imply to them that if her food is withheld, you would be willing to take legal action against them.  You may also speak to the facility management via phone prior to the meeting to see what their stand is on this issue--it may set your mind at ease to know they wouldn't carry out your relative's wishes.  They may only be calling the meeting (or they may be unaware of the reasons) in order to make their position known in the presence of everyone.  You should also check with Legal Aide in your state, and ask them what laws would protect your mother in this situation.  I would be sure everything in the meeting is well documented, and if your mother doesn't have a durable healthcare POA, then you should petition the court to be named legal Guardian for her so you won't have to worry about the other relatives trying to find ways to hasten her death.  
Best of luck to you Diana as  you go to battle for your mother.  She's very luck to have you on her side.  Cindy

I always thought respite care was to keep a person alive and happy

not to give them a slow starvation death? How dare anyone do this is my opinion re taking away a person's basic right of  medication and water and  food.

I am shocked and really saddened

Phyl.

34 comments

Euthanesia in the back door, Which does happen

Either with a families consent or sometimes without.

Sometimes in the elderly, if alone and not enjoying

life they will be allowed to slip away without intervention.

To starve someone so  they will die, is horrendous to me,

Is the decision  for the patients' benefit, or the one

making the decision.

I find this absolutely appalling Phyl.  This is why everyone should have a POA whilst they are still capable of signing one.  I'm sure that the Nursing Home won't allow itIf you don't have access to free legal advice where you are, make an appointment with your Doctor and discuss it with him.  He would know what steps  you should take to prevent this happening.

I just can't believe that people can be so callous to even suggest this and my heart goes out to you Phyl.  I hope and pray  that you can successfully overcome this situation.

I too spent time in an orphanage until my maternal Grandfather fought to get me out and arranged with friends to adopt me.  The friends had looked after me whilst my mother was dying but when she did die my father put me into an orphanage.  I was one of the lucky ones although I was suffering severe malnutrition by the time I was released.  It's a time I have never forgotten.




 

 

Seggie. Still not sure what's going on as some of my replies haven't been accepted. I check my typing to make sure no swear words or anytying unpleasant. Sorry if i've made mistakes but is Seggie on the outer or what?

A great and heartfelt letter thanks Sandikay.

..

Peter and I will never get over Peter's Mum passing in such circumstances

and cannot help but blame ourselves although she gave

someone in the family Power of Attorney and the same person

Execetor of her will and yes we were aware Mum did not want

extreme intervention re  resussitation BUT we never

knew anything had been signed re withholding all medication

and we believe food as our daughter travelled to see Mum

just before she passed and she was not responding and skin and bone :(

and moved to another nursing home to boot without Peter (an only child)

being informed she was being moved but why when

she was happy (as far as having a hip which had been broken due

to a fall) and too afraid to try and walk again) but eating and drinking o.k.

and doing fine but there are so many lines not filled out.

It is all too late now and someone has won.

Thanks Sandikay.

Phyl. and Peter.

Sandy your avatar is fantastic. How is your daughter going

Have not heard for a long time.

All the best.

Hi All,

Wobbly,

It was interesting to read that your aunt was required to hand over property to the Salvation Army as a proviso to receiving their help.

As a community advocate, I work with many people needing help and while the Salvation Army does help, it is more limited than other charities.  An area I am most passionate about is the rights of the disabled and the Protection of children.   Australia has signed the Protect the children convention some 20 years ago, yet has failed to bring it into legislation, due to so many vested interests fighting over it.  Many of those interests are the so-called support and legal organisations. 

Guess what! The orphanage I grew up in was owned and run by the Salvation Army, hence my memories of this supposedly do good organisation is not pleasant and later contacts related to employee work conditions where I had to investigate underpayment of awards and conditions.

Lastly was its insulting offer of $2,500 payment without prejudice as compensation for my treatment.

My reply was that I valued my life at a greater value than that.   As far as I was concerned I had not sought the offer and that, there was no way they or I would ever agree to the value of a human life.

The plus side of my experience was that I became an advocate for those unable to speak for themselves and an absolute dislike for bullies in any form, whether individuals, corporations or government.

I was luckier than many. I found it easy to learn, being gifted with intelligence and an ability to study, so I gained skills in many fields.

Yet I continue to be horrified how some people, government departments and agencies treat the weak and vulnerable in our society. We believe we have gone to war to bring justice but have really. Who benefits? The rich, multinationals while the ordinary people become the victims of these wars for so-called justice. Governments have been reluctant to compensate those who have fought for right and their country.

I don/t wish to enter a debate on justice but feel I need to make this comment and to express sadness as to how the world is involving. Greed and the mighty dollar remain supreme. Social justice is a misnomer.

Professori au, My grandmother had 3 children my mother being the eldest followed by an intellectualy and physically disabled daughter who never achieved more than the mental age of a 3 year old,following this my grandmother had 1 son. My mother died at the age of 38 years old due to tragic circumstances leaving 5 children to be raised by our dad alone. My mothers brother who also had 5 children by this time was a man who only visited my grandmother on rare occasions and always to con her out of another parcel of money to finance his latest venture non of which succeeded . He was not interested in the welfare of his disabled sister at all only making sure that he got whatever money that was available and posturing and bulling until he achieved his aims. My grandmother who initialy owned large parcels of land in and around Perth was eventualy reduced to just owning her home plus 1 other block of land. By the time this came about I was only 16 old enough to realise what had happened but to young to be able to help in any way. My grandmother was in her early 80s by this stage and still caring for her disabled daughter alone, so I moved in with her to helpbefore and after work etc. I wanted to care for my aunt myself as I loved her dearly as she loved me, but my grandmother said no as it would in her opinion destroy my life and limit my chances of actualy having a life. My grandmother then made an arrangement with the salvation armyto take her and my aunt into a fabulous nursing home overlooking the river in Freemantle and I was pleased as my nanna was very happy there. The house and land was given to the salvos on the understanding that they would care for my aunt after my grandmother died at the same placeuntil she died, Imarried and went north to live but when I went back to visit was told my aunt had been moved after my grandmothers funeral although no one was informed and I went to the funeral and then visited my aunt to see if she was ok before returning north. By threatening to go report my aunt as a missing person I was eventualy told where she was being kept. She had been moved to a very poor area of Perth where there were several people just sitting at the end of a dingy cold alley on old mismatched kitchen chairs,I did not recognise her but she knew me and launched herself at me calling me by name and asking for mum. Words cannot describe how angry I was as she had gone from about 10 stone to half her body weight and she was just bones dressed in rags. I immediatley tried to have her removed and placed in my care but could do nothing,I went to my uncle and he did not want to know. I reported it to the police and they said that there was nothing they could do.I was completely alone and powerless. I had taken my 3 children to Perth for medical checks leaving my husband up north so had no choice but to walk away. Once home I rang this hellhole and sent foodparcels but never recieved any acknowlegementor reports on my aunts welfare . About 6 months later my sister who went to visit and check on this aunt was told that she had died but we were not notified of her death and to this day dont know where she is buried. Wobbly

hmm so much for Christianity and the Salvation Army.

I won't donate to them because they are no longer a Christain church but a commercial operation with an objective to make money hand over fist.   They cry poor but look at the buildings they own.  From a Christain group developed to pick up their fellow man their objective seems to have changed to working ways to pick your pocket.

I am angry, yes.    Especially when I see governments being so gullible.

We have been critical of some other church groups, and with every right, but St.Vincent De Paul in this area is ever willing to help those in need, without charging nearly commercial retail prices.   Franchising the stores are designed to generate profit not to assist.

I don't know if the statement by "professori au" are correct, but if charity stores are now being "franchised", maybe we should become Muslim, because I can't imagine what Christ would have done with these non christian money making scum.

Hi Phyl,

I'm sorry you had to go through all that, it's bad enough losing someone without having all the rest to deal with and you can't blame yourselves for what happened.

Barbra has been off chemo for almost 3 months now, so we are just waiting for the first blood test to see how she is doing.  She has a lot to fight for now as they had a daughter last November using a surrogate mum.  If we had PM's I would send you the addy for the  pictures on a website to look at but won't put it on a public forum.

We are going over to NZ in November for the baby's first birthday.  So am looking forward to seeing them all.

It is the first i have ever heard of it and I work at Vinnies ,We have a Salvation Army store two doors down which charges double what we charge but all their staff I have been led to believe are paid workers wheras vinnies Is run apart from a manager completely by volunteers.Wobbly

What lovely news re your daughter Sandy.

..

What a miracle for them to have had their baby

and how blessed your whole family is and thank God your daughter

is doing well.

..

I will try and send a private message to you with my addy

as love to see your wonderful grandaughter. It only seems a very short time

you were showing pics. of the place in N.Z you were going to holiday at. Must

have been a couple of years then?

 

Zap on My Profile top of page  (yours) :) I mean

and see private messages.

Hi All,

INNES

Please don't take my word.  If you make some discrete inquiries about how these Salvation Army charity stores are run you will find out for yourself.

I am not too sure about paid workers but I do know that some of the people are voluntary workers.  whether paid or not I am not sure.    I remember one time investigating a Salvation Army centre to check on the wages and conditions and found the workers being underpaid and expected to accept that on the basis of "doing the Lord's Work".

When questioned the reply was öur people don't get paid the award wages, therefore when we employ someone this is the wage we offer.  Basically they were told that what arrangement they made with their chrch workers was between them and their people but anyone else was entitled to be paid under the appropriate wage and conditions.   As far as their members, if one of them complained then the Army would find itself in the same situation and may be required to backpay their worker/s.   This was in 1982 and how things have changed with voluntary workers now working for nothing for different organisations as a contribution towards the community in which they live.  As certain types of employment is overloaded and people want to work it is easier for organisations to lobby to be allowed to use voluntary workers instead of paid workers.

professori_au

Those you are concerned about are made victims again by economic rationalism.  We all will be in time unless we are very wealthy and have trustworthy carers.

You are right to be dismayed by the poor coordination in the care (and health) sector and the relentless squabbles over territory.  The encouragement of more entrepreneurs to enter the arena has more to do with the government quest for savings - so often achieved through reductions in services and quality - and the even stronger desire of politician and bureaucrat alike to side-step their accountability.

 

I would like to hear more about your and others experiences in State care but it would need another thread to avoid hijacking this one.  Maybe the experience is forever too hard to talk about though.  How to ensure transparency and accountability for what goes on in public and private care organisations are just some of the problems.

Hi professori au I am not so concerned about wages or not being paid to volunteers for a religious charity orgaisation which is covered legally as a "not for profit".  It is the question of franchising that concerns me. That would change the moral status as well as the legal & taxation situation. As a franchise they cannot pay below award wages & have no access to work for the dole staff through Centerlink.

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