Religion
As there is no sub section for any discussions on variouse religions , I guess dilemmas is as good as any .
Join in if you are interested or don't bother if you are sensitive to discussion on your particular faith.
Interesting post Shetso. As late as the 19th century women were considered to be oldish in their mid to late 20's so Elizabeth may even have been in her 20's when she fell pregnant.
Just had a great cup of tea made with loose tea rather than a T.Bag. Religion is a bit like that - the basic concepts and true flavours of Christs teachings before pollution by "modernizing" should be what counts, his basic concepts if everyone lived by them and had compassion, humility, empathy a concern for others, rather than just self, forms a good doctrine to live by IMO.
Viv. I think you have the right thinking, {i'm not just picking on Roman Catholicism.} only because it was the main Christian teaching for centuries and a lot of false teaching was introduced, Just one.... priests not to marry.. which in itself has created so much intolerable pain , That probably came from Paul" who said it was better not to be married, BUT he also said to the disciples that he had the same rights as them, if he was married!! to have his wife with him as they have theirs.
Yes bypass all the razzamatazz that has been added, just take in what was actually said by Christ. no one is forcing you to accept it, but the truth is always better than lies. Who knows? it may change you.!...Chuckle chuckle
Always seemed to me bizarre that Celebacy was not originally advocated in the early early testaments but then was introduced around 300 AD? also that married Anglican priests now can convert to becoming Catholic married priests and be acceptable while born Catholics don't have that option.
Celibacy demand shows Just how a way later tinkering with the Religious laws altered the original concepts and helped to split Christians apart.
Viv, The CofE arose out of the King of England wanting a divorce, then followed all the others with their own ideals.. Methodism, Presbyterian, Congregational,etc, the list goes on, but those three, are today's Uniting Church. They were all seeing fault in Catholicism especially "Roman" but today the three got over differences and now are one.
Shetso I think you are quite right that Elizabeth John the baptists mother was probably not old but was barren . And the point of my reference was that she had John Jesus cousin by immaculate conception.
Both she and Mary had other children but not by immaculate conception .
Have never heard that John the Baptist's birth was an immaculate conception. Likewise believe John the Baptist was Elizabeth's only child, but yes believe Mary and Joseph had other children..
The difference as I see it is that Mary was unmarried and a virgin. Elizabeth was married and had been trying without success to have children for many years. Get the impression that Elizabeth''s husband Zechariah because of his age, believed he was no longer capable of having sex with his wife, and then the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and told him they would have a son, and then I think the scripture says something like 'he went home to his wife' and basically just think John the Baptist was conceived naturally......But still think modern medicine could shed light on the fertility problems between Elizabeth and her husband.
But to be honest don't waste a whole lot of time thinking about Immaculate Conceptions...
Why so concerned about things that happened a couple of thousand years ago and really we do not know who was what age then.
If one wishes to believe in something (faith) then why try and change them. It is their own private & personal thing.
If you are an athiest then that is your personal decision and has nothing to do with me or others.
Stay out of others personal lives.
I do not belong to any organized religion and never would, I am not an atheist --I am an Agnostic. I have read the Bible and I do enjoy to debate Religion, and if necessary agree to disagree. I do not think the Bible was meant to be taken literally, ie I don't believe that the world is just 7 thousand years old. I tend to think that Organized religion is a money making racket. I have often disgusted Religion with friends and those that are Religious say "you must have faith" -- sorry but I want answers, I do not accept things blindly.
I also believe that if you live life the very best you can and do no harm -- do unto other etc you can't go far wrong.
Live life so no one has to lie at your funeral ; )
Agree with both posts plan B . But I don't understand the agnostic position
Pete, An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.
And what Goal is that?
How does the bald guy know what goals different rekigions have or whether some have goals at all.
Rugby for example is a religion. But it's goal is to score try's and win the game
I think I saw that on Dink's Facebook page ?
Solo,
Fair point.
To me life is all about how you play the game not some goal at the end.
SD
An extremely useful work is the “Trial of Jesus of Nazareth” by Professor S.G.F. Brandon, a Christian. This work is rigorously researched and impeccably documented. Brandon has/had (I do not know if he is still living) impressive qualifications in Comparative Religion, presented significant lectures: Wilde lectures at Oxford, Forwood lectures at Liverpool. Not only was he a member of Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, but also of the Society for Old Testaments Study; and the International Society for the Study of Time.
Brandon states that two Christian groups existed. Those of the Church of Jerusalem which comprised of Jesus’ original apostles and desciples, including Mary, (Jesus’ mother), James (his brother), Peter and John. This group denied that St. Paul had been an apostle. They also taught a “Christianity” at such variance with Paul’s, that Paul himself referred to it as “another gospel” ... “another Jesus”, particularly when “reporting” Jesus’ trial and death. The Jerusalem community perished in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.
Paul had never met Jesus during his life. Paul distances himself from the Jerusalem group in a letter to the Galatians:
“I would have you know, bretheren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man ... but came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Paul’s intention was to establish that his teachings were divine in origin, quite independent of that taught by the original apostles.
In Paul’s Second Epistle to the Corinthians, he defends himself from the Jerusalem group, which perceived him of unsound mind, of being delusional. The Jerusalem held Jesus’ death as a ‘human event’; Paul, on the other hand, claimed it as a ‘mystical event. Paul:
“... even though we once regarded (oidamen) Christ from a human point of view, we regard (ginoskomen) him thus no longer ...”
It was as late as 649 AD, that the dogma of the Virgin Birth was proclaimed under Pope Martin I, during the third council of the Lateran Council. It was not until 1854, that the Catholic Church, in the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus, that Pius IX pronounced and defined that Mary, herself, had been of Immaculate Conception, thus, freeing her from original sin, and providing her with a pass into Heaven without the need for baptism.
There is much to admire in Jesus' ethical teachings. Jesus had important things to say. The fact that these are largely a synthesis of various Jewish schools of thought of the time do not detract from their grandeur. J
Personally, I suspect that Jesus was either a rabbi or Jewish teacher.
I agree with Bishop Spong ..
Bishop John S. Spong:
http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/vox21096.html
“The Supernatural Being that we have traditionally called God has increasingly been rendered impotent by the explosion in human knowledge over the last five hundred years...
...
In this world of scholarly dialogue God has not been spoken of as an external Supernatural Being who periodically invades the world in decades.”
“the most pressing theological issue of this generation ...to envision God in some way other than in the theistic categories of the traditional religious past ...
“Jesus was identified in some sense as the incarnation of this theistic God... was portrayed as a sacrifice offered to this God to bring an end to human estrangement from the Creator. ...
In a post-Darwinian world, where creation is not finished, but is even now ongoing and ever-expanding, the idea of a fall from a perfect world into sin and estrangement is nonsensical. ... The idea that somehow the very nature of the heavenly God required the death of Jesus as a ransom to be paid for our sins is ludicrous ...”
Seth you raised the point of variouse Protestant sects uniting . And the reason that the Protesants , or Protesters split away from the Roman Church.
My understanding is that Luther started the movement as a desire of Christians to have a direct relationship with God and not through a priesthood . Who worshipped in a language they did not understand and a bible written in a language they did not understand ..
What is happening now is going away from 'faith' but to prove how wrong religion is. Of course anything to do with faith is ridiculous to those who do not have it, Why there is so much effort put into denying something not understood. But that is human nature. Speaking in another language comes from what is called óther tongues' or the 'Pauline affect; deriving from Pauls' experience on the road to Damascus, It is a phenonamon that can happen when someone finally realises who Christ is. Like in that saying..I was blind.. But now I see. that is when it is life changing. all the rest is like peeing in the wind. It is what we choose. You have to search among the chaff to find the wheat, anything precious is always hard to find. unless you search diligently.
Twila a Rabbi is a teacher as was Christ.
I don't follow your reply Seth . It was simply following up on a point you made . I agree it has nothing to do with faith .
the laguage I referred to was Latin ..The Roman Church until recently conducted its services in Latin and the bible also was in Latin .
The Protestants wanted services and the bible in their own language .
This is a matter of record Seth.
As for speaking in tongues the only experience I have is watching on television and is a form of mass hysteria IMO .
Is their any doubt that Jesus was a Rabbi ?
Pete their is no doubt he was called a Rabbi by his followers.
I thought you were mentioning 'speaking in tongues'' I understand the upheavel when escaping from Latin. but wasn't that one way the RC church controlled and retained their power.
I doubt if it was ever meant to be used as per TV. it is rather for a more personal and private use in response to a deep personal need.
Publicly in can appear as if demented.. Like Prayer it is personal.
Yes, I know seth,
Many believe that Jesus, himself, was a Rabbi.
I respect all religions and those of good-will who follow them.
There are many things I will never understand. I don't believe that one day billions of years ago there was a big bang (whoosh) and suddenly there was a universe.
Does the universe have an end. Like is there a brick wall at the edge ? But I cannot comprehent that there is a nothingness beyond that brick wall.
So how did the universe start.
Yes I know there are the theories but I have difficulty understanding how something exists if noone created it.
Our environment is too complicated to have evolved fron a big bang. You only have to look at the human body. Pretty complex thing to just happen.
I know there will be someone who will try and explain, but I can only say that you may have read some article somewhere but you really do not know.
If it was created by a Diety then that also is beyond my understanding.
As you can gather I am no expert on the topic, but who is ?
Do you think we have stopped learning ?
What makes you say that ?
Looking back thru my post I cannot see where someone would think I inferred that we have stopped learning.
As far as I am concerned the day I stop learning is the day I depart for good.
The more you think about our being here, alive, breathing, marrying, raising a family, working to sustain our family. what we have no matter at times the hardship we encounter, the disappointments that land on the doorsteps, the suffering some endure, the list could go on, But isn't it great to have had the opportunity to have experienced it all.
Yes Gerry the universe is vast possibly no beginning and no end, our little human minds, no matter how clever one is, will not solve how it all began. Or how life began and why, we can only surmise their is a very good reason.
Why do you think their has to be a reason Seth?
Seth,
Life itself is reason enough.
The ultimate mystery that has no answer.
We try to answer it and like politicians spin it as much as we can to suit ourselves and our way of thinking.
Do your best but ultimately fate is the hunter.
SD
Pete I would have thought that any thinking person, irrespective of 'faith' would come to the conclusion that no matter what we do there is a reason' why we do it. We can understand we are here to propagate our own kind, whatever that may be, but we do not know why "the reason".
So in my ignorance I can only surmise their is a good reason for it all.
As shaggy hints at , why does there have to be a reason ? We procreate yes . So we have self fulfilling cycle and if you wish that is a reason ,
beyond just procreating the question that there is no other purpose , is just too great to contemplate hence religion , faith , everlasting life .
But then if course one could ask what us the point of everlasting life.,
I wonder if other animals know or ponder on the meaning of life.
Knowledge Doubling Curve
Buckminster Fuller created the “Knowledge Doubling Curve”; he noticed that until 1900 human knowledge doubled approximately every century. By the end of World War II knowledge was doubling every 25 years. Today things are not as simple as different types of knowledge have different rates of growth. For example, nanotechnology knowledge is doubling every two years and clinical knowledge every 18 months. But on average human knowledge is doubling every 13 months. According to IBM, the build out of the “internet of things” will lead to the doubling of knowledge every 12 hours.
Pete re doubling of knowledge, every day I wake with enthusiasm, with expectation, what am I going to learn today? everything is new!! it is wonderful. the downside? none; Tomorrow it will be all new again.
Have no real problem with discussing religion either, and as someone raised a devout Catholic fully realise that my understanding of the life and times of Jesus, and the bible generally is pretty narrow with generous overlays of ignorance, bigotry, superstition and Catholic/Christian manipulation, and believe this would be the case for many Catholics/Christians and possibly most religions.
I mean to glean a better and more accurate understanding and appraisal of the life and times of Jesus surely the whole story should be viewed through the social, economical, political, cultural, historical, and sociological framework of its time....
Take for example the notion of time and Pete's earlier reference to Mary's cousin Elizabeth (this thread - 10.12.14 - 10.31am) and the reference to Elizabeth's age and childlessness, and quietly wonder if Elizabeth and her husband were 'REALLY OLD 'people at all.
I mean from my understanding of these times believe that women would have married and had children young, and sort of get the impression that Mary would have been about 15 or 16 when she gave birth to Jesus. Likewise think the life expectancy of these times was about 40/45 or thereabouts, so it's likely Elizabeth may have appeared very old whilst still in her late 30's perhaps, but still quite capable of becoming pregnant. But believe 21st century medicine may have been able to throw some light on the problem. But then again Mary was present at the crucifixion and on my reckoning would have been aged in her late forties.
But can't quite fathom the longevity of people like Adam living to 930, Abraham living to 175, Moses 120 etc. Perhaps something to do with different calendar regimes...but proof yet again of my ignorance on the topic. Thus can see no real surprise given the confusing narrowness of the religious instruction of our childhoods that people would just out of curiosity, rather than disrespect, question and try to make sense of what many religions (and don't limit this to Christianity alone) are on about.