‘Dirty car capital of the world’: Government’s plan slammed

New South Wales Treasurer Dominic Perrottet will cement his state's status as the dirty car capital of the world if he follows through with a scheme to whack a tax on electric vehicles, according to the Electric Vehicle Council (EVC). 

EVC chief executive Behyad Jafari said the Treasurer's puzzling position, if retained, would be a crushing disappointment to those who could see the abundant potential of electric vehicles for NSW

"No other jurisdiction in the world – aside from the South Australian Coalition Government this week – has thought it sensible to apply a special new tax to electric vehicles," Mr Jafari said.

"Yes, in the long run governments won't be receiving as much in fuel excise as people drive more efficient vehicles. But that's a good thing. Burning less foreign oil in our cars is good for our city air, it's good for our health, it's good for our climate, and it's good for our economic sovereignty.

"The money paid in fuel excise doesn't get quarantined for roads. That's a myth. If tax is dwindling from one area, governments don't have to make it up from that same area. That would be like whacking a new tax on nicotine gum because you're worried about a drop in the tobacco excise. It's madness. 

"One day, when electric vehicles start becoming common place, the time may come to consider new taxes. But at this point in our history, when we should be doing everything possible to encourage people to switch to electric vehicles, this tax would be pure poison.

"Of all the jurisdictions in the world NSW would have to be one of the last who should worry about the speed of EV uptake. NSW is already languishing up the back of the pack in the global race toward electric vehicles. Mr Perrottet now wants to blow out our tyres.

"Modelling by EY, released just weeks ago, shows every electric car sold today is a net win for government coffers and a net win for the economy more broadly. Why would any government try to discourage that?

"As any Liberal worth their salt will tell you, when you whack a big new tax on something you discourage its use. That's exactly what would happen here to the detriment of every citizen in NSW – and to the detriment of the planet.

"NSW is already a global dirty car magnet because other nations have restrictions on emissions. Mr Perrottet's plan would well and truly cement that status."

Do you think there should be a new tax for electric vehicles? Or do you think governments should be encouraging their use?

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I wish everyone would pay attention to the costs of generating electricity to power EVs and to manufacture the massive batteries required. It has been proven that the reality of electric vehicles is they are no cheaper to make and use than are petrol-powered vehicles - and their travel range is well short of what Australia needs. EVs are not a viable alternative except perhaps in megacities. The future of emission-free motoring lies with hydrogen and it's high time that its use was being pursued energetically (pun intended!).

Production of Hydrogen motor vehicles is not financially viable. BMW confirmed this in 2007. They already had a prototype model. Not only is it very expensive to manufacture but setting up Hydrogen Supply Service / Centers (Stations)  all over the country is horrendously expensive.

Also, hydrogen can be very dangerous. 

The two prime dangers from fuel cell and hydrogen-powered vehicles are the danger of electrical shock and the flammability of the fuel. ... In addition, the hydrogen used to power a vehicle does not necessarily have to be stored on the vehicle as hydrogen.

The biggest reason why hydrogen-combustion engines are no good? They create nitrogen oxide, which isn't good for people or the environment. Even though carbon isn't part of the hydrogen combustion process, NOx isn't a compromise as automakers look to zero-emission vehicles.

This is in response to Arvo.  Honda are one of the world leaders in hydrogen powered cars.  Generally while it is possible to run an IC engine on hydrogen, it is not the prefered technology. The prefered power conversion method is the fuel cell with hydrogen in and electricity out.

Fuel cell systems work extremely well in most situations.  The only emissions are water vapour.  However the thorn in the saddle cloth is hydrogen embrittlement of the metals in the fuel cell leading to premature failure.

The cost of setting up H2 refueling stations is little different from the upgrades of electrical grid systems to cope with a high number of EV charge points.  The H2 can be produced locally via either electrolysis or stripping from NG.

H2 vehicles can be fully refueled in a time similar to existing liquid refueling and the level of danger is no greater.

If Government wants to overhaul the tax system for cars, let them do it equilly and fairly.

These days I travel no more than 5000 Km's per year and pay the same road tax as someone who does 10 times or more than that amount.

Charge per Km travelled which is revealed at the time rego renewal is due. It could be as simple as that. Odometers are very hard to reset without upsetting the overall computer system of the car's running system.

I am not holding my breath.

We are already taxed on the amount of kilometres we travel, Beaky, it's called a fuel tax. The more you drive, the more fuel you need, the more excise you pay.

The reality is....according to Ernst & Young, a big multi-national company, who did a comprehensive economic study on EVs versus ICE... that Electric Vehicles provide an economic advantage over internal combustion engine vehicles (and this is in addition to the other benefits to people & the environment, such as reduced noise, reduced pollution and health costs).  You can google it to read it for yourself.  It neither makes economic sense nor social/health sense to continue to use polluting ICE, and the sooner our politicians learn that, the better for Australia.

Direct from the Ernst & Young report:


" EVs provide a net revenue benefit to government versus fossil fuel vehicles. • EVs deliver significant additional net benefits to society, principally through avoided GHG emissions, avoided particulates and other pollutants (particularly when replacing diesel cars and buses), including noise. • Electrification of buses has a net per-km benefit around 70% higher than replacing diesel cars with EVs, and more than double the benefit of replacing petrol cars with EVs.

$8,763  = The average net benefit to government and society of an EV replacing an ICE vehice
$0.011/km  = The average net government revenue benefit of an EV replacing an ICEV

 EVs currently contribute more to government revenue than ICEVs per vehicle, even when accounting for losses of fuel tax excise and GST.

Overseas experience has shown that government incentives and support act as key drivers of EV uptake, particularly when the existing market is small. The results of this analysis suggest there is an opportunity to align the policy and support framework for EVs in Australia to better reflect the government and societal benefits of EV uptake."

"Do you think there should be a new tax for electric vehicles? Or do you think governments should be encouraging their use?"

Yes, a big part of the price we pay for fuel goes as a tax to pay for our roads in part and other government infrastructure. Electric vehicles will be using those same roads but not contributing to the upkeep. If we accept that electric vehicles will save the planet then governments should be encouraging them but that is a discussion for another time and another place.

 

 

Horace, our Rego is supposed to pay for road upkeep, etc, although not for new extensions as they will benefit companies who need them so they are supposed to contribute, - without proof on either side, I hear that that rarely happens, - I suppose that is because they get away with paying minimal tax they think they can suck on the commonweal, - like mine companies when they have exhausted their mines and supposed to restore the environment, - they either leave some old codger 'maintaining" from his tent, or just walk away, - I can't understand why you keep supporting these miserable leeches, - usually, when you look back at their records, they gave the minimum to Australia and took more than the maximum they were entitled to. 

An important part of your argument is that EV's will not be paying their way, but no-one is talking about reducing normal Registration, etc. charges, - except your mates in Qld who tried to bribe people to vote for them by offering free or vastly reduced rego, - who pays for it then? - the Rich? - pull the other leg.. Vale qld liberals..

That the time of discussing electric vehicles can be consigned to some other reality, in the which Black Summer did not happen and Australia is not 1.44 degrees C warmer, is I think a bit childish, - we have the problems we are having and they are not nice, - let's be grown ups, (well perhaps Morrison is incapable, but that is just my point of view) and confront the very real problems that we have to confront.

Please Horace, - no more licking, be a human like all of us.

 

 

There is a forum at the moment discussing climate change, Lookfar, perhaps you'd like to have a look at it. Here's the link.

https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/the_meeting_place/post/ongoing-extreme-weather-conditions-to-wreak-havoc-on-australia?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Volume%2020%20Issue%20229%20Daily%20eNews%20Friday%2013%20November&utm_content=Volume%2020%20Issue%20229%20Daily%20eNews%20Friday%2013%20November+CID_e21135f0b8f109100af8da22523ce68c&utm_source=campaign%20monitor&utm_term=Ongoing%20extreme%20weather%20events%20to%20wreak%20havoc%20on%20Australia

THe 42.3¢ per litre excise on petrol represents about 1.4% of fed gov’t revenue. fuel excise *doesn’t* fund roads. it goes into general revenue. Putting a tax on Evs is a ridiculous idea and will slow the tax up, as will a Luxury Car Tax.

Range of Evs is getting better all the time, surpassing 500km/charge. Australia also manufactures and exports charging stations, so win-win.

According to the link below, the cost of roads is $69B per year and taxes and levies raise $45B per year leaving a shortfall of $24B to come from consolidated revenue.

 

https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petroltax/

Hi BillW41, the obvious way to power Electric vehicles is by increasing and extending our Renewable Energy resource, - Renewable energy is so cheap it would be foolish to use any other method.

The trick is to join up our renewable energy sources, - there is amost nowhere in Australia there isn't some wind blowing, the sun shines on Australia 16 hours/day.

With Batteries, Australia supplies the Lithium, - the most expensive part, to nearly half the world, - we should be making those batteries here in Australia, - much better for our balance of payments, interesting work our youth can strive to be employed doing, lots more money going around, and the connecting of Renewables to Renewables, apart from all the jobs it will create, will give us virtually continuous power Australia wide.

Google Electric Car travel ranges

Do you need to drive 400ks to work? get a Kona, think about how much it would cost you in petrol to do a round trip of 800 kilometres per day in just petrol.

Building the electric cars in Australia is also going to be very good for the economy and our youth, many of whom have had no jobs in their life, so may soon be unemployable.

This sort of activity, - eg. building electric cars, is mainly done by robots these days, so big labour bills are not necessary.

If only we had a Govt that had the courage to develop this path rather than trying to hide under the skirts of the fossil fuel industry, Australia would be a far better and happier place.

 

Me thinks that electric vehicles are part of the future and denying it is just putting your head in the sand. However electric vehicles will not perform all transportation tasks. For instance a 40-tonne B-Double would, in the forseeable future, still require some form of non-battery energy , may be diesel or hydrogen or some other form of fuel. Mums taxi and dads work car are prime candidates for electrification, as long as rapid charging is readily available.

The question is taxation (aka fuel excise) applying to fossil fueled vehicles vis a vis electric vehicles which are not paying. A situation that  appears to be totally unfair. A road user charge seems the fairest means to partitially fund roads irrespective of propulsion source. NZ have a 'road user charge' based on the weight of the vehicle, a car or ute currently pay about $NZ72 per 1000km. Based on fuel consumption of 12l/100km this equates to about $NZ0.60 per litre, at 10l/100km $NZ0.72 per litre

I am not champoining a RUC, just putting it up for discussion in the expectationn  that electric vehicles will become more  common and cheaper.

To go one step further maybe electrification of our regional and interstate rail network is another project worth further consideration.

The Electric Vehicle Council need to be realistic and recognise that the EV is a very minor player in the transport industry now and if it will be seen as a genuine advancement over the contemporary IC vehicles, the customers must be prepared to pay the premium.

Yes, within the heart of such Australian cities as Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne, they could contribute to a cleaner safer atmosphere, but in the whole of Australia context, they offer no advantage or benefit to anything.

Though an extremely small player in the car market, it is still a sensible and morally correct position that they should also pay the same road user costs as the other vehicles in the traffic stream.

What is ignored by the proponents of the EV is that many of the metals used in their construction are extremely energy intense in their mining, transport and refining before they can become part of the clean vehicle.  Essentially all of the mining and transport of the raw materials is totally dependant on "fossil fuel" powered vehicles.

It is appropriate if the EV owners/drivers wish to be taken seriously and treated as equal than they should be prepared to pay a Road User Tax as all other vehicles do.

 

I have a couple of points Couldabeen. to do with the tax side.

As you say, electric vehicles are a small percentage, just like petrol vehicles were hugely outnumbered by horse drawn vehicles when they first started happening. 

To my knowledge, the taxing of petrol, etc. vehicles only became serious when there were a majority of them on the roads, - such should be the case with electric vehicles.

Also I recall reading a report by the NRMA in NSW. stating that a fully laden semitrailer does as much damage as 25,000 sedan cars, - do semitrailers contribute 25,000 times as much? - of course not, the semis are funded by the family car drivers.

Unfortunately the semis are manufactured overseas, the fuel for them mainly imported from overseas, and their cost to the road system immense. - perhaps it is time to stop subsidising the semis and use the rail system.

So as with all new things, there is often a growing time where the new thing is protected until it is more able to stand on it's own, - such as we have seen with Solar.

In regards to the usage of coal fired electricity being used to mine, transport and manufacture the electric vehicle, it would be a very simple matter to replace that coal fired electricity with renewable energy, and as it is much cheaper than coal fired energy, all it needs is for the Morrison Govt. to get out of the way.

 

Spoiler Alert

UK set to ban sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030.

I question the safety of disposing of batteries which can no longer be used.

Most EV makers have a plan to repurpose them, most EV car makers already do, so all good.

Is hydrogen gas visible if it catches fire. e.g. if somebody walks through the area smoking when vehicle tanks are being filled and some vapour is escaping into the air? LP Gas can ignite too. That is one of the reasons vehicle motors have to be switched off before more fuel is pumped into a vehicle. An explosion from it can damage buildings as far away as the next street

Not sure but was told there are only about 800 cars sold in Oz that are electric.

I did a working out on my vehicle on Petrol compared to the electric, based on fuel price on 100kms and the 25 Cents a Km that the Government wants to charge.

Fair suck of the sav.....Its going to be $25 for an electric vehicle over 100kms and right now I am only paying $17.88.

Never going to own an electric, screw them. I will buy a horse first.

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